Twenty-three minutes after takeoff this past Saturday, shortly after reaching an altitude of 31,000 feet over Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula, an Airbus A321 flying as Metrojet Flight 9268 abruptly plummeted and crashed, killing all 224 passengers and crew. The suddenness of the loss of communications, the rapidity with which the plane descended, and the size of the area across which the wreckage was scattered indicate that the plane experienced a sudden, catastrophic structural failure at high altitude. But what does that tell us in practical terms?
Given Russian aviation’s rather poor reputation for maintenance, one immediately obvious possibility was that the plane had suffered a severe malfunction. Receiving particular scrutiny was the fact that in 2001 the aircraft’s tail had been repaired after being damaged in a rough landing. This suggested a possible parallel with China Airlines Flight 611, which suffered a catastrophic decompression 20 minutes after taking off from Taipei in 2002. In that case, too, the aircraft’s tail had been fixed after a rough landing years before. When the faulty repair job failed, the airplane was ripped apart with such force that the pilots had no time to make a Mayday call.
Parallels might also be seen with TWA 800, which crashed off the coast of Long Island in 1996. In that case, NTSB investigators concluded that the plane had exploded after faulty wiring caused fumes in a fuel tank to explode, leaving the plane’s pilots no time to radio for help or try to steer the plane to safety.
On Saturday, the New York Times published a story on the Metrojet tragedy that noted that “the fuel tank on one of its planes exploded before departure from the Siberian city of Surgut in 2011, and the ensuing fire killed three people.” That makes it sound like Metrojet planes have a history of exploding fuel tanks, but that’s not really the case: What actually happened in the Surgut incident is that one of the plane’s engines first caught fire, and that fire subsequently caused the fuel tank to explode some minutes later. That is to say, fire preceded explosion, not vice versa. An engine catching fire in flight can be swiftly catastrophic — such an event downed Air France Flight 4590 in 2000 and effectively ended the Concorde’s career — but not swiftly enough to prevent a distress call.
It’s worth noting, too, that in the wake of TWA 800 industry-wide design changes were made to fix the problem, and no similar accidents have occurred in the two decades since.
If mechanical failure did not bring down Metrojet 9268, the other possibility is malice.
Apart from a handful of flights like TWA 800 and China Airlines Flight 611, planes that have blown up in air have done so as a result of either being blown up by a bomb carried onboard or after having been hit by a missile. A well-known example of the former would be Pan Am Flight 103, which was downed by a Libyan bomb over Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988. An example of the latter would be Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, which was destroyed by a Russian-made Buk surface-to-air missile system while flying at 33,000 feet over rebel-held territory in eastern Ukraine.
Given Russia’s recent entanglement in the chaos of Syria, there is no shortage of factions that would be happy to cause it harm, not least ISIS, which in the immediate aftermath of the downing issued a statement declaring, “The fighters of the Islamic State were able to down a Russian plane over Sinai province that was carrying over 220 Russian crusaders.”
A report on the MH17 accident released last month by the Dutch Safety Board specifically cited Sinai as an area in which commercial airline routes might be in danger of attack from the ground. The possibility that a missile strike is to blame has been tacitly acknowledged by several airlines: Emirates, Lufthansa, and Air France have all rerouted their flights away from Sinai.
The thing is, it’s pretty hard to shoot down an airliner at cruise altitude. When it came to grief, Metrojet 9268 was flying six miles above the ground, well out of range of the shoulder-filed anti-aircraft missiles that have proliferated among the region’s various ethno-religious factions. To reach a target that high requires a more sophisticated type of weapon — at a minimum, a vehicle-mounted medium-range surface-to-air missile like Russia’s Buk or the U.S.-made Patriot. Such systems reach altitudes of more than 80,000 feet.
Not many players possess such weapons, however. Not only are they expensive — a Patriot missile costs $2 million to $3 million — but they are so manifestly dangerous that the great powers have been very prudent about distributing them to their proxy fighters. For all the material that ISIS has liberated from the U.S.-supplied Iraqi Army, Patriot missiles are not among them. The Dutch Safety Board report concluded that “there are no indications that point to the presence of medium or long-range surface-to-air missiles.”
Bombs, on the other hand, are easy to obtain. Less than a pound of explosives smuggled into the baggage hold is enough to provide a fatal blast. (Pan Am was destroyed by just 11 ounces of Semtex.) And there is certainly no shortage of motivated parties who might want to punish Russia for its recent decision to commit air and ground forces to the Syrian civil war. The drawback to a bomb, of course, is that they can be thwarted by security measures. One would expect, given the volatility of the region, that airport security in Sharm El-Sheikh would be tight. But in the past year several breaches have been reported.
In the immediate aftermath of an air tragedy it’s often difficult to separate fact from rumor, and Metrojet 9268 has been no exception, with various Russian and Egyptian officials making conflicting claims. Monday afternoon, however, came what seems like a significant development:
A senior defense official told NBC News late Monday that an American infrared satellite detected a heat flash at the same time and in the same vicinity over the Sinai where the Russian passenger plane crashed. According to the official, U.S. intelligence analysts believe it could have been some kind of explosion on the aircraft itself, either a fuel tank or a bomb, but that there’s no indication that a surface-to-air missile brought the plane down.
That same infrared satellite would have been able to track the heat trail of a missile from the ground.
If the report is true, then a Lockerbie-type scenario becomes overwhelmingly the most probable.
That being the case, Metrojet 9268 could well be seen as chickens coming home to roost for Russian president Vladimir Putin, who in the past has shown staggering indifference to civilian casualties. He is widely viewed as being responsible for the bombings of two Moscow apartment blocks in 1999, which killed 300 people and were used to provide pretext for the Second Chechen War. More to the point, he is widely viewed as bearing responsibility for the downing of MH17. If we have entered an era in which civilian airliners have become fair game, no one is more responsible than he.
Note: this story originally appeared in New York magazine.
And the bodies in the rear have blast injuries. I never doubted the video from the moment I saw it. Middle East baggage handlers are now the issue with IS tentacles going everywhere.
Make that baggage handlers everywhere. Especially SE ASia.
SBIR
Saw heat flash
Since the remains of the Kogalymavia (Metrojet) Flight 9268 (18-year-old Airbus A321-231) and the bodies have been scattered over an area measuring about 8 km by 4 km, the destruction of the structure of the Kogalymavia Flight 9268 should have happened in the air and at a great altitude. The wreckage showed no signs of a fire or an engine-related explosion. The Kogalymavia Flight 9268 cracked open into two main segmentsm suggests a catastrophic failure, not a mechanical failure, perhaps an explosion on board rather than a missile fired from the ground. A technical malfunction, even one as serious as an engine fire, could not have led to such a rapid disintegration.
Images of the tail section show a clear break near the site of the rear pressure bulkhead, possibly indicating failure of the bulkhead. The remains of the tail of the Kogalymavia Flight 9268 were found 5 km from the rest of the wreckage. On Nov 16,2001, while operating for Middle East Airlines, the same aircraft suffered a tailstrike landing in Cairo, Egypt. It was repaired and went back into service with the airline in 2002.
Tailstrike at landing often occurs on the second touchdown, following a bounce. It is often associated with a hard landing. Tailstrikes at landing generally cause more damage than tailstrikes at takeoff because the tail may strike the runway before the main gear, and cause damage to the aft pressure bulkhead. Unstabilized approach, holding airplane off the runway in the flare, mishandling of crosswinds and overrotation during go-around increase the chances of a tail strike during landing.
Like Kogalymavia (Metrojet) Flight 9268, on May 25, 2002, China Airlines Flight 611 (Boeing 747-209B) disintegrated in mid-air and crashed into the Taiwan Strait 20 mins after takeoff from a Taiwan airport, killing all 225 people on board. The in-flight break-up was caused by improper repairs to the aircraft 22 years earlier for a tailstrike incident while landing in Hong Kong.
The botched repair of a tailstrike caused Japan Airlines Flight 123 to crash in 1985, 7 years after the plane suffered a tailstrike on landing at Osaka Airport sas JAL Flight 115 – the worst single-aircraft accident in history, in which 520 of 524 on board were killed. Very similar to Kogalymavia (Metrojet) Flight 9268, Japan Airlines Flight 123 also suffered catastrophic explosive decompression 12 minutes into the flight and, 32 mins later, crashed into two ridges of Mount Takamagahara in Ueno, Gunma Prefecture, 100 km from Tokyo. The crash of Japan Airlines Flight 123 was attributed to an incorrect repair of the a Boeing 747SR’s tail section following the tailstrike, which left the rear pressure bulkhead of the plane vulnerable to metal fatigue and ultimately resulted in an explosive decompression.
Planes climb to a cruising altitude 9 km to 11.75 km because there, the air is far thinner, and against that lessened resistance they can fly faster and use less fuel. When they reach that altitude, however, they must maximize the air pressure in the cockpit and cabin and that puts stress on any structural component that has weakened over time. Typically, if there was that type of defect, you would expect it to manifest just as it reached the peak altitude.
Well, UK&US officials gave their opinion today and I have to agree with them…it was most likely planted bomb.
Sad tragedy again. Some told about engine explosion but curiously few days before that I saw in local TV document about Airbus engine stress-testing, where in case the engine detects any dangerous disbalances, then it destroys rotor itself by explosives intentionally, just to prevent whole plane damage – never heard about that before.
Marty-Perth- that video floating around (including on DailyMail) was of a helicopter crash in Afghanistan.
The media is really turbing out now that someone said it “might be” the T word.
An example of how political interference and criminal proceedings can derail an accident investigation is well illustrated by the 1980 incident involving Itavia Flight 870, in which the plane broke apart at altitude, just like the Metrojet plane, but it crashed into the Mediterranean, making debris recovery more difficult. No final report was ever issued, but the Taylor report – http://aviation-safety.net/pubs/other/Taylor_paper_Ustica_illustrated.pdf – made it clear that the Itavia plane was brought down by a bomb. However, an Italian political commission and an Italian criminal court both concluded that it was shot down by a missile, thus handing a victory to conspiracy theorists.
It will be interesting to see if the Egyptian/Russian investigation is similarly derailed.
Isn’t it enough for them just being sadistic degenerate murderers? Why the need to broadcast their derangement in the name of God? Like we really need them to tell us how creepy they are? It’s not as if they have worked really hard at becoming maniacal, these ISIS guys are freaks no matter what, not by what they do but what they are, no need to keep sharing it with the world.
Well we have the Russians killing Daesh. The U.S. killing Daesh, but the U.S., killing Syrian’s that support Assad, while the Russians kill Syrian’s that oppose Assad. Turk’s killing Kurd’s while the U.S. is allied with Turkey, while the U.S. backs the Kurd’s fighting Daesh. Makes a whole lot of sense to me. News has it that Vlad moved some SAM’s into the area as well. Who knows, anyone could get blown out of the sky next..MH17 proves that. With the latest loss of life standing at 224 pax & crew. Vlad just may have met his match when it comes to killing. Ah…Arab Spring has Sprung and…”You ain’t seen nothin’ yet”
Do you seriously believe Russians have intentionally brought MH17 down?
Chris – it could actually suit Putin?
http://www.watoday.com.au/world/vladimir-putins-silence-could-bode-turbulence-ahead-20151105-gks3u0.html
@DubyaDubyaDubyaDot
Sorry, but the video that was released by IS or its affiliate immediately after the Sinai crash doesn’t look anything like a helicopter to me, its clearly an airplane of some sort.
Which Afghanistan video you are referring to? Could you possibly provide a link?
Until then I concur with Matty Perth – I have no reason to believe the IS footage (or whatever group it was) doesn’t show what they claim it shows, namely the Russian airliner being taken down.
@ Stevan G
If the Russians really did bring MH17 down intentionally, it is another ‘coincidence’ to add to a growing list of MH370 coincidences.
Two events involving the exact same model of plane and of course same airline within 4 months of one another.
Hmm…
@ALL
The MH-17 tribunal for causation was intentionally shut down by the Kremlin. Draw your own conclusions.
As for 9268. I personally thought a in flight breakup due to lousy maintenance & the heat signature being a fuel burn off due to the break up. With Egypt & Russia being lead in the investigation, we stand a good chance of a TWA 800 finger pointing contest that could go on for years. The Egyptians not wanting to lose a single pound of tourist money, while the Russians not wanting to accept that Daesh could so effectively kill it’s citizens practically at will. That’s what I meant by Vlad may have met his match. Daesh is never going to stop & they’ll take on all powers no matter the size to prove it. The Afghan’s handed Russia their ass’s & that is history that Daesh will feed upon. Vlad’s silence could be his yearning for a seat at the negotiation table. If the U.S. & Russia had their shit together, they would first eliminate Daesh along with a joint Arab & Euro., coalition, THEN solve the Syrian problem. But it’s all boiling down to a Shia – Sunni flipping mess that the world may never get a hand on any time soon.
@Matty
In fact, f*ck off the bloggers, most of them, its part of the media s*it we are fighting against. If you imagine the interest of russian government, it must by anything but being seen as agressive bastard, which is what many poeple(?) still want to have to play with. Excuse my english.
Interesting parallels
Its amazing how the instant lies of corrupt muslim regimes, who abused their fellow muslim people for decades, egypt and malaysia, sound so familiar similar.
The same kind of muddying the waters like in case of MH370, the same kind of denial and the obvious preparedness, to do everything to deflect anything that could prove a muslim unrest in that country.
It seems to be an axiom that those regimes will lie imediately, as soon as there is any hint to political rebellion within their sphere of authority.
That makes me think twice about MH370. Maybe that was victim of a political attack.
It has been a mundane year. Since the excitement of 2014 kicked off with the mystery of MH370 and culminated in the shooting down of MH17, the news agencies virtually loses steam.
So they needed new item to sensationalize. Even “Germanwings Crash” and the latest “Metrojet Crash” cannot draw enough attention. So to make “Metrojet Crash” more appealing they suggested a foul play; they quoted US and British intelligence communities as suspecting a bomb exploded midair and this suspicion was drawn from their mere ‘feelings’ NOT definitive evidence!
The bottomline, a compelling story must be about aircrash and the cause must be extraordinary!!!.
Nevertheless, no news stories can compete with MH370 thus far. MH370 is simply abound with endless possibilities. I cannot wait for some production houses to take it to silver screen. Perhaps employ some ideas by Jeff Wise in his books about MH370.
From the Australian
British plane almost hit by rocket
A BRITISH passenger jet came close to being hit by a rocket as it approached Egypt’s Sharm el-Sheikh airport in August, although the UK government says the incident was not a deliberate attack.
THE pilot of the Thomson flight from London took evasive action after spotting the missile coming towards the plane as it flew to the Red Sea resort, the Daily Mail has reported.
The rocket was believed to have come within 300 metres of the plane, an unnamed source told the paper.
Britain confirmed the incident had occurred but played down its significance as investigators try to pin down the cause of a Russian passenger plane crash over Egypt’s Sinai.
Western officials believe it was brought down by a bomb after taking off from Sharm el-Sheikh.
“We investigated the reported incident at the time and concluded that it was not a targeted attack and was likely to be connected to routine exercises being conducted by the Egyptian military in the area at the time,” the Department for Transport said in a statement.
A government source also said the rocket was not thought to have come as close as the report suggested.
This week British Prime Minister David Cameron halted flights to and from the Egyptian resort on concerns that the Russian jet had been downed by a bomb.
Flights resumed on Friday to bring home stranded tourists in the resort, where about 20,000 Britons were on holiday.
However, the operation descended into chaos on Friday when only eight of the 29 flights left Sharm el-Sheikh because Egypt said Britain’s insistence that passengers returned without all their luggage meant the airport was unable to cope.
@Lehmin
MH-370 is the quintessential aviation mystery of all time.
MH-17 is without a doubt a purposeful shoot down. As conducted by Dutch aviation board
http://news.aviation-safety.net/2015/10/13/dutch-safety-board-mh17-brought-down-by-missile-in-airspace-that-should-have-been-closed/
While the Russians deny, deny, deny. Completely senseless and most likely never prosecuted. The fog of war & all that BS.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34538142
Metrojet 9268 leaves many hands wringing b/c, if proven that ISIS actually pulled it off. What is Vlad’s response? & the World for that matter. So…we’ll all hold our collective breath, hoping that it was an in-flight break up? At any rate 224 soul’s are not returning to their homes, nor families. Then…not to mention the 1800 Brit’s & 8000 or so Russian’s stranded. Daesh/ISIS, whatever you call those blood crazed destroyer’s of the 21st century are actually laughing while the world struggles to thrust & parry with it’s advances in the Middle-East.
@Chris
Metrojet is indeed the work of Mohammeds descendants. Interesting times ahead and i fully expect the world to teach these Islamic murderers that such 14th barbarism is not accepted.
Edit 14th century not 14th*
“MH-17 is without a doubt a purposeful shoot down.”
they have mistaken it for a warplane, bunch of warplanes came that same route days before and bombed them
every sane authority would close that airspace, not ukrainian apparently
The report says the plane broke up in mid air. But how did it break up? Did it break up immediately or gradually?
What happens when there is a significant leak of air pressure in the cabin? Does the plane instantly loses altitude and because of the aerodynamic of atmosphere causes the plane to break apart during steep plunge?
There is a possibility that any explosion may not be big enough to break apart the plane but big enough to leak air pressure. As such, the plane drops suddenly and the pilot cannot recover altitude.
Anyhow, the tail part does not show any sign of burn mark while the fuselage turns to smithereens.
@chris & @ir1907
ISIS and like-minded group will always claim credit for just about every terrorism works!
Oh yes, we should keep tabs of their activities but do not give them too much attention and they will be reduced to insignificance pests whom shall be pushed back into oblivion.
I look at these pests as a group of frustrated creatures whom has given up hope of this life.
The muslims say the word ‘muslim’ means a peaceful person who submits to the will of Allah. But, members of ISIS and similar group do not seem peaceful. Therefore, they are not muslims but satan worshippers.
No muslims will shed the blood of their brothers and sisters because as I understand Allah forbids them.
The conflict between the Sunni and Shiite is more political than religious which traces back to the appointment of the successor of Prophet Muhammad SAW. The shiite insists on Ali ibnu Talib as the rightful successor. However the appointment of muslim caliph is based on consensus by members of a syura (council).
Of course, there are differences in some religious practices by the Shiite and Sunni but these differences is trivial; the principles remains similar.
Unfortunately, nobody wants to back off and overtime these political misunderstandings got infused with religion. I am sure you know how powerful the influence of religion in politics.
The west should stop interfering in the muslim world, let them work out a way to reconcile among themselves.
The way I see it, one of them (either the Sunni or Shiite) should make the first step to reach out their hand while the other must be willing to accept it.
@Lehmin
“What happens when there is a significant leak of air pressure in the cabin? Does the plane instantly loses altitude and because of the aerodynamic of atmosphere causes the plane to break apart during steep plunge?”
Systems would have dropped oxygen mask’s, if that failed hypoxia would have made them lose consciousnesses on the way down. It would have, to have been a sudden COMPLETE separation /in-flight break up. Now they’re going to have to figure out…was the noise the plane blowing apart due to a blast OR blown apart from a catastrophic failure. Either way a “noise” is going to be recorded by the CVR.
While you & I know that ISIS is no more holy than Satan’s vile waste. Tell that to the endless followers looking to build a caliphate in their name. Tell that to the Saudi Prince busted with two ton’s of speed bound for the battle field, the drug of choice of ISIS battling the infidels.
We’re witnessing a greatest scourge since Hitler or the Barbarism that IR1907 mentioned.
And I,m sorry my friend but, you won’t see the olive branch of Peace being offered anytime soon between Shia & Sunni, only b/c it’s regional. With Yemen, it’s the Saudi’s (Sunni)Iranian’s (Shia). Then step back & take a 360. Syria, Egypt, Libya, Iraq, not to mention other
African nations & the allies ISIS is gathering. Like I mentioned in a previous post. “WE ain’t seen noth’in yet”. ISIS is not a problem that the Muslim world can solve alone. Indeed, it may be the last chance that all nations concerned be it Muslim, Christian, or otherwise could come together for the betterment of mankind.
If depraved individuals form a group, give themselves a moniker and start killing people, and we then refer to them by that name, aren’t we in some way condoning it?
This rag-tag band of rogues with initials wasted no time displaying their barbarous acts early on, making it crystal clear that the dregs of the earth had somehow assembled.
These murderers and their dubious chosen name should not be legitimized by using their label, nor should the religious, political agenda they hide behind. This group is unified by the common denominator of derangement and should not be mistaken for anything else.
It would be mutually beneficial for them and the world if they no longer existed
@Lehmin
There is no such thing as a moderate muslim or moderate Islam as the religion is founded on bloodshed and invasions. I suggest you to read the Quran where it says killing of ”infidels” is justified, basically all these people have been decieved by a illiterate thug and a warlord called Mohammed.
I think this issue ^^ is very much ontopic because the passengers&crew on Metrojet are the victims of a fairytale and its thuggish followers.
“There is no such thing as a moderate muslim or moderate Islam as the religion is founded on bloodshed and invasions. ”
well, just about any other religion then, although a bit more extreme
Christianity was at this stage through medieval period, give Islam several centuries and they’ll become what Christianity is today.
IS, no matter what it wants you to believe, doesn’t even figure in the collective conscious of the wider Islamic world. To the contrary, its viewed with complete incredulity, its motives and origins simply fuel for Middle Eastern conspiracy theorists. This is not dreamy sentimentality, but reality.
IS is no more Islamic than Hitler was Catholic, and the vast majority of Muslims feel this way.
IS has become a magnet for the world’s sadists and lunatics. Susie Crowe provides the perfect summary, “this group of unified by the common denominator of derangement and should not be mistaken for anything else.”
@StevanG
Are you saying that we, in the 21th century, should give islam more room and time to kill and invade because it might reform one day ?
I am sorry my friend but that day will never came as the core and principles is based on terror and bloodshed.
@SajidUK
A verse from the Quran :
Quran (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”
^^ With that verse we can conclude that only the ISIS followers are the true islamists, no ifs and buts. They are following everything that is written in that devilish book.
Many more such barbaric verses out there but i will include one more
Quran (2:191-193) – “And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out.
@SajidUK, now please tell me what for sick and fkd up religion promotes this insanity on such a large scale ?
@IR1907
I was discussing IS and simply stating that they don’t enter into the thoughts of the vast majority of Muslims, despite what they and their supporters would have you believe.
That in itself shows how the wider Muslim World views IS’ interpretation of their religion.
@IR1907
Is that for Gol 1907? Anyway, it’s good to see you recognize how detrimental unbridled anger can be toward others.
@IR1907
Are you trying to sound like Sam Harris or something?
Jay – he has a point but. There is nothing to stop militant Islam from running with those interpretations because they are there in B&W. Moderates might be the majority but they don’t run Islam – noone does.
IR1907 – How about: In those days even the stones will cry out – here is a Jew, there is a Jew. And so Allah will enable you to kill them all.
@all
I would have to agree that Isis is nothing more than a bunch of marauding hordes trying to create a hateful and incite full caliphate. It thrives on hate while masquerading as a legitimate Muslim organization. What’s terrifying is…people are buying it…by the thousands. Hitler indeed is a fine example of people believing hate inspired words while trusting those who spew this kind of caustic nonsense. Hate filled groups such as these are poison and should be dealt with short order and with no mercy. The world together better recognize that we’re rapidly running out of time to deal with this collectively before it spreads any further and takes hold of what we regard as sanity.
@Matty, IR1907
Let’s not forget when those words were written. It’s not, I’m sure meant for a time as 2015, but when the Jewish, Muslim & soon to be Christian religious stone age was going on.
I’m no expert but I lived from 1974 – 1979 in Iran, actually graduated high school @ Tehran American High in 1975, then went on to work for Bell Helicopter in Tehran. I loved it. Sure their was huge political changes going on with the Shah, BUT..we were never persecuted as Christians, but Americans due to foreign policy.
What I’m getting at….During my time in Iran, & Turkey as well. The commoner’s were, as I sought them out, just wanted to get on with their lives. Especially the Iranians. I had a great time in Iran & would go back if possible one day. I was NEVER once challenged on my religious beliefs. And religion was never a subject. The subject, with both sides curious, was about everyday life & trying to understand one another’s culture. My last counter part at Bell was the most influential Iranian I had ever met. All of the social do’s & don’ts, introducing me & my wife to his family. It was a great experience, but politics, corruption on the Shah’s part and yes religion fouled it all up. I could have worked and lived in Iran my entire adult life without ever flinching.
Please…Don’t fall for the hatred. All Muslim’s are not bad folks.
@Chris in Dalla
I’ve heard your arguments before. Unfortunately neither I or anyone else sees any move by the greater Muslim community to impede or distance themselves from the atrocities. I don’t doubt your experience, but it does little to offset the general mistrust I feel for the Muslim community.
Chris in Dallas – actually those verses are intended primarily for the end days where Islam will conquer the world – particularly the reference to killing all Jews. But I hear what you are saying. In the sixties in Iran I’m told they danced barefoot at the beach to the Rolling Stones. Even in Afghanistan at that time women wore dresses and got educated. If you look at Bin Laden’s family snaps as late as 79 he’s there in his desert boots looking very relaxed. His cute cousins are standing around in purple T shirts and denim flairs with raven locks all the way down the back. What has happened with Islam was quick and leaves you thinking who really has the clerical authority in that religion. I think you will find that moderate is to Islam what lapsed is to Catholic, and of course most Muslims are just people. We have a Bangladeshi writer here in Australia called Tanveer Ahmed who sums it up: most Muslims are not decent people because of the Koran, they are decent people in spite of it. In 1899 Churchill called it the most retrograde force on the earth. The trend is all bad I’m afraid, and a survey in Saudi Arabia has revealed high levels of support for IS.
I by no means wear rose colored glasses, nor humbly say “Can’t we all just get along”.
As we know, like friendship, it takes time especially when it garners trust to accept any religious, racial or “Different” group into one’s community. Many folks tend to keep at arm’s length anyone outside their social grasp. When we stop trying and say flip-it when a vast minority tries to run the whole show bending the reality of a entire religious, racial, or different group we aren’t trying hard enough to reach the vast unheard ( whether out of fear or social ridicule) majority willing to share views & discuss the real meat on the bone. True there is no help for some. Old rivers run deep & many will drown rather than wade into negotiable understanding waters.
Wups…..meant for,
@DennisW
I by no means wear rose colored glasses, nor humbly say “Can’t we all just get along”.
As we know, like friendship, it takes time especially when it garners trust to accept any religious, racial or “Different” group into one’s community. Many folks tend to keep at arm’s length anyone outside their social grasp. When we stop trying and say flip-it when a vast minority tries to run the whole show bending the reality of a entire religious, racial, or different group we aren’t trying hard enough to reach the vast unheard ( whether out of fear or social ridicule) majority willing to share views & discuss the real meat on the bone. True there is no help for some. Old rivers run deep & many will drown rather than wade into negotiable understanding waters.
@Matty
Won’t argue with you there. My Mother, 2nd generation Irish Catholic reminding me many times of the Protestant Catholic schism & the loss of relatives during the famine. “More people have died in the name of God than any other reason in history Chris” Well she lived long enough to see that pass, not in the way some wanted, but moving on nonetheless…Keep Trying.
Saudi Arabia is the most oppressive country I’ve ever lived in, no doubt about it. I was only there for one year (1987-1988) in support of Litton Industries TSQ-73 Hawk Missile Batteries, the predecessor the the Patriot. I supervised a warehouse distributing support materials such as Mod Bulletins, gun interface units, etc., to the radar sites. Had 16 Saudi nationals, four Thai’s, & three Filipinos. They also had Pakistani non-commissioned officers which to this day I never understood, utterly useless personnel. Only the Saudi’s could out do them for laziness & not caring one way or another, just let the foreigners do it….YAWN. One of the Saudi warehouse men asked me for a ride home when leaving the base in Jeddah. Sure Solomon..hop in. The entire ride centered on the unhappiness bestowed upon him by the Kingdom & forced to work there due to an arrest. He in fact was working there as part of his probation. “Well….whats wrong with that, at least your learning something”. Because of his arrest they yanked him out of school (Veterinarian)and forced him to work for the Military. He hated the Royals, they were no good, steal all of our peoples money to serve the Royal Family & hundreds of Princes & Princesses. They are how you say “Crooks”. As I drove the work suburban at his direction through his neighborhood he pointed out his house? It was virtually a mud hut that housed himself & four other family members. As he got out he asked me. Have you ever heard of Osama Bin Laden? Nope can’t say that I have Solomon. He is a great man Mr. Chris, you will hear of him one day and if we could vote here, he would be our leader. OK Solomon, we’ll see ya tomorrow. I dismissed his pipe dream as I pulled away not having any idea how that name would haunt world history. Saudi Arabia is the ultimate prize for ISIS & the Royals will be shaking in their sandals soon if not already. My feeling is, if left to their own, the Royals would have a scorched Earth policy before handing over a single sand dune to another Sunni warring party.
And…..Is it out of the realm to wonder if the House of Saud has been behind ISIS & can no longer control the animal they’ve been feeding?
“Quran (2:191-193) – ‘And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out.'”
In every translation book of the Quran, there are footnotes to explain the context or meaning of the verses.
These verses reveal permission from Allah to the believers to defend themselves and retaliate accordingly under certain circumstances such as when they are chased out of their homes and lands and when the non-believers show clear animosity towards the believers and express intention of waging war against them. Nevertheless, the believers are forbidden from excessive force and brutality, and stop their engagement when the enemy stop.
“Quran (8:12) – ‘I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them’”
You forgot to quote verses before (5-11) and after (13-14) verse 12; even verse 12 you quoted is incomplete.
These verses (5-14) was revealed prior to the Battle of Badr. The muslims of Medina were planning to raid a trade caravan headed by Abu Sufian who was returning from Syria. At the same time they received news that a legion of army from Mecca led by Uthbah ibnu Rabi’ah together with Abu Jahal would attack Medina.
Prophet Muhammad SAW divided the muslim forces into two: one to raid the caravan and the other to stop the army of Mecca at Badr.
However among the muslim rank and file they have mixed feelings of anxieties and fear. Some of them are reluctant and if were given the choice would rather join the raid on the caravan so as to avoid death.
Allah the all-knowing and all-wise revealed verses 5-14 to soothe their fear and make them steadfast by promising the assistance of legions of angels and making the enemy fearful of them when they meet face-to-face.
“There is no such thing as a moderate muslim or moderate Islam as the religion is founded on bloodshed and invasions. I suggest you to read the Quran where it says killing of ”infidels” is justified, basically all these people have been decieved by a illiterate thug and a warlord called Mohammed.”
As much as there are dark side to the history of muslims (not Islam), there are also good side (and as a matter of fact even more). Otherwise you would never be familiar with coffee, sugar and many kinds of cuisines, fashions, musics, algebra, astronomy, FLYING MECHANICS, optics, medicines, surgeries legislations and judiciary, education,and many inventions that the muslim scientists, mathematicians, technologists, philosophers and intellects have contributed to our modernity which we have come to enjoy today. Give credits where credit are due.
By the way, you are right about there is no moderate Islam because the very Islam is already about moderation, modesty, humility and ethiquettes. So, putting moderate before the word Islam is unnecessary! If Islam teaches about evilness and vile acts the world would have been chaotic long before and the West would never have come out from their dark age! We would be seeing an apocalyptic world by now and not knowing iphone, iMac, Windows and even Boeing 777!
They said the present is the mirror to the past. How have we come to this unfortunate present state?
Before the collapse of the Ottoman empire, internal strifes were very much contained and manageable until the british and other european colonialists broke apart the empire into smaller regions. Since then the people of these regions developed a stronger nationalistic sentiment and the muslims became divided. The Palestinians, the real native of palestine were chased out of their homelands and the British brought the fake (not pure) Jewish people in great numbers to occupy a land which does not belong to them! Do you think the Palestinian will just sit back and let the Israelites plunder them.
By the same token, before the collapse of Saddam Hussein, internal strifes were under control. After the US invaded Iraq, all hell were let loose!
“I think this issue ^^ is very much ontopic because the passengers&crew on Metrojet are the victims of a fairytale and its thuggish followers.”
Which part of the Quran is a fairytale?!
@Lehmin
Let me ask you this. What fairy-tale are the followers believing? Why are thousands flocking to this dread against Muslim, Christian, Yazidi, Kurdish peoples just to name a few), while certainly making room for others. “IT”,….being ISIS seems to wrap around any way possible the body of it’s next target. How many Muslim’s has IT killed for nothing but pure pleasure and shock value. How would anyone consider them a legitimate religious member of ANY religious faith?! Just because you butcher with one hand the Quran in the other does not make you religious. WHY is not the lasting sane Muslims not protesting worldwide against the very existence of this blood thirsty CULT born of Islam. Calling themselves Muslims born of Islam!! Who among the Muslim world has ever spoken on a world forum, addressed this scourge that only deserves it’s own rightful place in hell. Is it fear that sends the Imams running? Is it the Quran telling them that they cannot speak against fellow Muslim’s when they are not even men, but Satan’s dogs from some hellish place that fuels their hatred and lust for blood & ruination. Syria is hemorrhaging from every human & social orifice while the Muslim world does nothing. They can rape, burn people alive, behead people and the Muslim world has not only NOT lifted a finger, but not even raised a voice! I tried earlier to expound on tolerance & understanding & not all Muslim’s are bad folks. But taking into account the lackadaisical attitude regarding the Muslim population as a whole & doing nothing is probably why IT will get away with much more in the future until certain types of bomb runs will make it more appealing to the rest of the world, regardless what IT calls IT’S SELF.
My dear Chris,
I do not know of any fairytales but from my study of the Quran I learned how a believer should conduct him/herself, how to deal with community, how to treat the environment and animals, how to perform the rituals, how to do business, about inheritance, marriage and a very tiniest fraction of criminal laws; all these make up the sharia. Nonetheless, the main recurring theme I notice is the assertion of the oneness of the Creator without any affiliates.
Do you really think the muslims just fold arms and watch idly?
Prominent muslim scholars of Al-Azhar University like Yusuf Qardawi wrote an open letter to Abu Bakar Al-baghdadi denouncing him and his followers’ brutality as not representing Islam. Rather than a world forum, do you not think that addressing the scourge named ISIS to local muslims community at home especially the young generations is more pragmatic in order to dissuade any would-be ISIS recruits?! Every muslim and imam I am sure are working earnestly on this. The Saudi, Jordan, Egypt, United Arab Emirates and Kuwait are already joining the airstrike campaign with the US; by no means, other muslim nations are just spectators. They have their hands full already tackling subversive elements in their own backyards as part of war on terror. Or perhaps you have better idea to eliminate the problems once and for all? I suggest you do not belittle and take lightly the efforts put forth by the muslims. They are doing their best in their capacity.
To help you comprehend the muslims, firstly, I assure you nowhere in the Quran, Allah has ever told the muslim to convert anyone but to relay the message only and that’s all there is. It is Allah who guides not the muslims. However, Allah also warns the disbelievers of dire consequences in the afterlife should they refuse to believe. Allah also says this life is nothing more than a place of tribulations; how you fare in this life will decide your fate in the hereafter either you go to hell or paradise. In the fourth sura verse 93 Allah guarantees a place in hell for any believer who shed the blood of their brothers and sisters without justification. Allah is all-just and all-wise.
Muslims are very passionate of their religious belief. Unfortunately, they can be overzealous in their practices as a result of skewed understanding of the Quran. Most notable with regard to criminality. For example, verse 38 of the fifth sura specifies the chopping off hand of a thief as a form of retribution. However, verse 39 stipulates that unless the thief repents sincerely and make amends by doing good deeds, then he/she shall be spared and forgiven. (Allah is most forgiving after all.) But the narrow-minded muslims overlook verse 39 whether intentional or unintentional. Another misunderstanding by the muslims in relation to apostasy, I assure you Allah never told the muslim to sentence the apostate to death. Instead Allah says all their good deeds will be in vain and will judge them appropriately on judgment day.
Lastly, everyday the muslims perform the five salat. They recite the following first sura of the Quran in their salat:
In the name of Allah the most compassionate and most generous. All praise to Allah the lord of the universe. The most compassionate and most generous. The sustainer and lord of the worlds and judgment day. To You alone we worship, and to You alone we seek refuge and deliverance. Guide us on the straight path. That is the path of those whom You favoured, not the path of those whom has earned Your wrath and not the path of those who are misguided. Amin
When the muslim stand, bow and procrastinate in the salat only words of praise and glorification of their Creator are uttered.
Still, to better understand the muslim and Islam in particular, I suggest you buy a good translation of the Quran and read it up yourself. If you find anything you disagree with then you can ‘shoot’ the muslim down. Just do not be like some people who is adamant on finding faults with the muslim.
Many good points raised here by different people. It would certainly help if imams and Islamic religious leaders raised their voices against the so-called IS, though this whole mess is far more complicated for a single group to resolve.
We must remember it is being fuelled and sustained by vested interests of all castes and creeds. It is us, the innocent man and woman in the street, who suffers the blowback.
Geopolitics is a nasty game, a place where oftentimes there is no morality, only greed and self-gratification. Whole peoples, groups, religions, are simply pawns on a chessboard to be utilized or discarded depending on the state of play. This is especially true of the Middle East.
The best any of us can do is see things for what they are and not be drawn into petty arguments and divisions that would simply hand victory to those who seek to profit from confrontation.
Lehmin,
My all observing Muslim supporter of Islam and all that is good, Sincerely.
“Rather than a world forum, do you not think that addressing the scourge named ISIS to local muslims community at home especially the young generations is more pragmatic in order to dissuade any would-be ISIS recruits?!”
No I don’t see it as pragmatic AT ALL. The entire world knows what IT is capable of, unless living under an ancient ruin or Mosque that IT has destroyed. And I still find it rather peculiar that you still define IT as Muslim at all. Slaughtering women & children that don’t convert, broadcast be-headings, burning people alive & broadcasting it, crucifixions, the atrocities go on & on. Why not as Muslim’s say before the world. “This does not represent the Muslim faith!” Why not put out something as slick as their recruiting videos, but in reverse, shaming IT! Denouncing them in social media. Denounce them in protest form across Europe. Denounce them without alienating the young. But do something..something that even God fearing Christians or pragmatists such as myself, would respect & admire.
Again…I’ll ask you. What is the mass appeal? Why would any sane person/Muslim join? And with only SOME of the atrocities listed above, you coin them as over zealous? Really? What can we count on when they do become zealous?
When Abu Bakar Al-baghdadi received “the letter” he was shaking in his sandals huh? Yeah Right.. He probably used it to light his water pipe stoked with hash before dashing off to one of his Christian, Yazidi, or Kurd sex slaves.
“The Saudi, Jordan, Egypt, United Arab Emirates and Kuwait are already joining the airstrike campaign with the US”
Air strikes alone won’t get it done Lehmin. We’ll have to have ground troops & I hope the world can take back what IT has taken from the Middle-East, and if not careful, what the African continent has to offer as well.
illusion or reality? you need to share the #love!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6qMD1lIWT0
Don’t you mean falken illusion or falken reality?